Top 10 Household Rules & Consequences List
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Back in the summer of 2005, the kids had decidedly different personalities than they have today. What I mean by that is that they were ages 4, 5, 6, and 6. As you can imagine, managing all of these personalities all so close in age was like trying to corral a group of young, wild horses. So, one night, DW and I conceived of a plan to make known our expectations. There would be clear rules and consequences. We came up with the idea of including them in the creation of what would be our “Household Rules and Consequences List.”
It was a rather humorous and interesting experience. Obviously, we would guide them in certain directions, but the list came together quite quickly as a result of the following question to the children as all 6 of us sat around the dining room table to make this happen…
What rules do think we should list that are the most important in the interests of fairness and respect to everyone in the household?
The follow up question would obviously be: And what do you think the consequences should be for breaking it?
Hilarity ensued. Yes, hilarity, while making a list of rules and consequences. With only minimal direction, this is the list that the children came up with in the order they offered them is as follows…
- LISTEN TO GROWN-UPS. Consequence - Sent to room.
- HANDS-OFF! NO HITTING, KICKING, PUSHING, POKING, ETC. Consequence - Sent to room and lose snack.
- MEAL - EAT MOST OF YOUR MEAL AND TRY NEW FOODS. Consequence - Lose snack.
- NO NAME-CALLING OR HATING (saying “I hate you” or “I don’t like you”). IT’S OKAY TO SAY, “I’m angry with you.” Consequence - A talking-to and a sincere apology should be given to the person you said those things to.
- NO THROWING STUFF IN THE HOUSE! Consequence - Whatever is being thrown will be taken away.
- NO WHINING OR FAKE CRYING (We need to react to problems appropriate, not everything is a crisis.) Consequence - Sent to room to chill-out until you get your emotions under control.
- IN THE MORNINGS - QUIET! GET TEETH BRUSHED, GET DRESSED, DO BATHROOM CHECKS. Consequence - Sent to room if not quiet and remain there until an adult is up.
- AS FOR SNACKS - DO NOT JUST TAKE STUFF FOR YOURSELF. Consequence - Snack will be taken away and loss of additional snacks is likely.
- SHARE TOYS. Be sure to talk and problem solve. Keep it friendly! Consequence - toy being argued about may be taken away.
- RESPECT ALL PEOPLE. Consequence - A talking-to and time spent in your room.
In the interests of having all parents on the same page with what we were attempting do, and that is, make the children conscious about being good people to one another and others, we let POE (DW’s ex) and PEW (LM’s ex) know what we did and how we did it. Further, we gave a copy to each of them to post on their refrigerators if they so chose.
POE loved the story. Thought it was a wonderful idea. Posted it on his refrigerator and gave all the kids a big pat on the back for their efforts.
PEW, well, you can imagine how she received it. We were “Nazi Boot Camp” and all of the usual and customary accusations of abuse and oppression would be forthcoming. Nevermind that the children actually crafted the list with our guidance. She found nothing redeeming about it. (For the record - she would bring this up to CE2, who would tell her that they were perfectly appropriate, the exercise was wonderful, and it was a clear sign of good parenting. When asked what her objection was to it, PEW stuttered and stammered through a weak follow-up because she knew she couldn’t really use “Nazi Boot Camp” with the custody evaluator, particularly after she just praised it as a sign of clear communication of expectations, boundary-setting, and just good parenting.)
This was the email I had sent about the rules and consequences list:
PEW,
A couple of updates for you…
Atop this list of important things that I have been working on and they have followed marvelously include:
- Dressing themselves. This means socks, shoes, clothes, the whole ball of wax. While I haven’t yet gotten to work on them actually picking out their own clothes each day, I lay out their clothes at night and they are BOTH aware that I expect them to get up, bathroom, brush teeth, and dress themselves. Both S1 and S2 did so without any assistance whatsoever. Please don’t let S2’s complaints snow you. He can and will do it. He will only need to be told what shoe goes on which foot, sometimes he put them on the reverse. You and Psycho-SIL are not their “servants.” They should be made to put their own shoes on (and clothes for that matter), not have you guys down on your hands and knees doing for them the things that they should be doing for themselves. They will only get away with whatever you allow them to get away with. (Same thing at night with pajamas.)
- Whining and “fake” crying. They are told that they will be ignored until they can talk in normal voices. Each time. Everytime. You would be surprised how little they do it when they are told this and if it continues - they stay in their room until they get themselves under control and then they can come out and talk to us in normal voices.
Beyond that, all of the children worked this weekend to come up with a “Top Ten” rules list with associated consequences. These are rules - most of which - they came up with. The list is going to all parents, nanny, and whomever else you feel is appropriate for having the rules (your parents, for example). Do with this list what you will, however, know that they will be living by these rules without fail (here) and if everyone follows the same course of action, all of the children will know what to expect from all of us.
I will bring a copy of the list with me for you tonight.
~LM
This update was important, because at the ages of 4 and 6, PEW was STILL dressing them. She was STILL putting on and tying their shoes. They were literally not doing anything for themselves and there was apparently no effort to move beyond the infant/toddler stage. When I tell you they were literally doing these things every day and night for them, I am not exaggerating. Dressing them. Undressing them for baths. Dressing them in pajamas for bed. Putting on and taking off their shoes. It was like they were two mini-Kings and PEW and Psycho-SIL were their servant wenches. Meanwhile, while with me, we were working on making them do these things for themselves. It literally took very little effort. Here is how you put on a shirt… underwear… pants… socks… shoes. And we taught them how to tie their own shoes. PEW didn’t do these things. I did these things. This is our little “Nazi Germany.” Then they’d go back home and PEW and Psycho-SIL would do everything that they had been doing all over again. The effort above was a very carefully crafted effort to inform her about the boys’ accomplishments in the hopes that she would carry it over at her home… without telling her, “You really need to do these things.” If you were to click on the category label “Discipline” or even “Health/Fitness” - and read any number of those posts, you would see that our approaches to just about anything that had anything to do with reasonably effective parenting were often diametrically opposed.
The following is an excerpt from a much longer communication between PEW and I on the issue of the rules list. Keep in mind as you read this that it’s another example of “before low-contact” communication and is a fine example of my contributions to the escalation of such exchanges:
PEW: He doesn’t like it there. It’s like Nazi Germany for God’s sakes.
LM: No, it’s not like Nazi Germany. That’s the image that you create with your imagination. It’s not Nazi Germany here.
PEW: Yes, it is.
LM: He doesn’t get toys and games and gifts when he doesn’t do the right things here, that’s all. And they’re very simple right things – they’re not big deals.
PEW: All right, okay. I can tell, LM, about he was like all bent out of shape this morning because he didn’t turn the light off in the bathroom and he didn’t flush the toilet and he was like, “yeah, it’s like what’s the big deal, Mom, and the bubbles pop and then it’s like you didn’t even go.” (getting more animated) – I mean, this is a child…
LM: (interrupts) Wait, wait, wait a second…
PEW: (continues) This is a child that is suffering from anxiety.
LM: (interrupts) PEW. PEW! PEW, I have it on tape. He was complaining…
PEW: (interrupts) I don’t care!
LM: He was complaining about S2, not me. S2 was giving him a hard time about not flushing the toilet.
PEW: But the anxiety doesn’t come from his brother, it comes from you only.
LM: And that’s really convenient for you to say so, but let’s just get the facts straight here…
PEW: (interrupts) Stop putting so much pressure on the kids.
LM: I’m not putting any pressure on the kids.
PEW: You are putting pressure on the kids.
LM: No, no I’m not.
PEW: Those kids, those kids…
LM: (interrupts) PEW, PEW - #1, you need to calm down… #2…
PEW: (interrupts, more animated) I am not calming down, every time I call you, my kids are upset!
LM: #2 – I am not putting any pressure on them. And unless you want to come down here and supervise, which you’ll never do because you’ll be proven wrong, you better stop creating fiction out of fact. Okay? All right?
PEW: Oh, so I can come down there and just get a room in your house and you know, supervise what’s going on?
LM: No, but you could observe the things that are going on around here, I could certainly…
PEW: (interrupts) And I wouldn’t like it, I can tell you that.
LM: I know you wouldn’t, but stop creating… if you’re not here, you can’t say that you know anything that’s going on so please just stop doing it because I’m just going to sit here and ignore it, all right?
PEW: Well, I think our son sounds like he is very upset and anxious about something, and I don’t know what it is because I haven’t been there all week. But, you know what? If it’s too much for you… whatever is going on…
LM: (interrupts) It’s not. No, it’s not too much – what it is is, he puts on a show for you because you encourage that kind of behavior. You always have and you always will.
PEW: I do not.
LM: So, when something…
PEW: (interrupts) No, I encourage openness and honesty…
LM: (interrupts) No, you absolutely do not and I have the tapes to prove differently, now…
PEW: (interrupts) This is the guy who walked around telling the kids (pause)…
LM: Telling the kids what?
PEW: Telling the kids not to tell people that we’re getting divorced. You were more concerned about your image than them being able to talk to people about what was on their minds.
LM: No, that’s not true. That’s not true. You’re making up stories again. The only thing I told my kids not to tell the neighbors was that we were getting back together the time you broke into the house and put them through that trauma. That’s the only time I told the not to tell the neighbors anything.
PEW: Mmmhmm. I don’t, I don’t believe that for one second. I don’t…
LM: I know. You create whatever it is that you’re going to create in your head and that’s what your reality is. I can’t control that. So you keep doing what you’re doing and I’ll keep setting you straight. S1 does that because he knows, he knows that you’re going to react the way you’re supposed to react and that is, you’re going to talk and you’re going to try to convince me to take him fishing or do something else and he’s putting on the show for you. And guess what? You do it. You did exactly what he wanted you to do and that is get on the phone and talk to daddy, right?
PEW: And what is that going to accomplish? Nothing.
LM: It’s not going to accomplish anything. What will happen is he’s going to say “are you gonna take me fishing” and I’m gonna tell him “no, I’m not going to take you fishing.”
PEW: Well we’re gonna take him fishing.
LM: That’s fine.
PEW: Whether he eats his dinner or not.
LM: I know! You encourage poor behavior. Okay? That’s precisely my point. That’s precisely what you claim you don’t do but you consistently do and at least now you readily admit it. It doesn’t matter what he does, you’re taking him fishing anyway. And you’ll buy him toys anyway. And you’ll give him snacks anyway. I know how you parent, PEW, I know. You don’t have to tell me so. But I appreciate you at least admitting that, so I’ll have that forever.
PEW: Oh no, I’ll tell you what I will admit, I have my own parenting style and your rules and DW’s rules, you can stick them up your ass!
LM: Oh, I know. Because they’re normal, everyday rules that they, that the children themselves came up with.
PEW: Oh, please.
LM: They did.
PEW: You’re pathetic. LM, you’re pathetic.
LM: I know. Start with the namecalling. Here we go. Can’t have a reasonable conversation when I call you on your absurdities, you start with the namecalling, right?
PEW: It’s not absurd.
LM: It’s absurd. Do you think that listening to grownups is an unreasonable rule?
PEW: I don’t know why my (inaudible)
LM: No, no, let’s go through the list, let me go downstairs, wait.
PEW: Why does he have to hide in the bathroom?
LM: He doesn’t have to hide in the bathroom.
PEW: Yeah he does.
LM: No he doesn’t.
PEW: “Because I don’t want anybody to hear me.”
LM: No, he doesn’t – he was fine. I was in another room, he was in the kitchen.
PEW: (inaudible)
LM: All right, let’s go through the list – Listening to Grownups – is that an unreasonable rule? Yes or no? Come on, let’s do this together.
PEW: It depends on what the grownups are telling them to do.
LM: Okay, so, how about #2 – Hands Off, No Hitting, Kicking, Poking, Pushing – is that an absurd?
PEW: No.
LM: Okay, how about meals? Eating Most of Meals and Trying New Foods – is that absurd?
PEW: It depends.
LM: Eating Most of Meals and Trying New Foods, within reason – is that absurd?
PEW: Umm.
LM: Try real hard to say something other than yes.
PEW: It is, it’s absurd because of the fact he has problems with trying new foods and he is already developing a weight problem that is anxiety driven already.
LM: Do you want to know why he’s got a weight problem? Because he eats pizza, hamburgers, and hot dogs, and you give him snacks regardless of his behavior – good or bad. Okay.
PEW: Mmmhmm.
LM: All right?
PEW: I know…
LM: (interrupts) That’s why he has a weight problem. Do you want to know what he ate this week? Do you want to know the things he ate? Here’s what he eats if you try. PEW, he’s had steak, he’s had rice, he’s had ham, he’s had pork chops. Can you believe your son ate pork chops and said that they were the best pork chops he’s ever eaten?
PEW: He eats that stuff for me.
LM: No, he doesn’t.
PEW: The only thing on that list that he hasn’t eaten for me is the pork chops.
LM: We’ll see. Okay. So anyway – No Throwing Stuff, Especially in the House – is that an unreasonable rule? Oh, wait, I skipped over #4 – No Name-calling or Hating – is that an unreasonable rule? Now, this is going to be tough for you because you are the King of name-calling but, in reality, is name-calling necessary? Is that an unreasonable rule?
PEW: No.
LM: #5 – NO Throwing Stuff, Especially in the House, Toys and Things – is that an unreasonable rule?
PEW: Nope.
LM: Okay, how about No Whining or Fake Crying – is that an unreasonable rule?
PEW: It’s unreasonable for kids that age, yeah.
LM: You think so? Fake crying is unreasonable?
PEW: It, well, uh, to put it on a list of rules and make consequences?
LM: They came up with it. I only put it on there because they came up with it.
PEW: Okay, whatever.
LM: Okay, how about being quiet in the mornings until everybody gets their teeth brushed and get dressed and do their potty checks – is that unreasonable?
PEW: That’s not what is says, but…
LM: It says “Mornings – quiet, brush teeth, get dressed, potty check.”
PEW: Yes, it’s unreasonable for 4 little children, yes.
LM: Okay. Ask for snacks, don’t just take stuff – is that unreasonable?
PEW: Yeah.
LM: That’s unreasonable?
PEW: Yeah.
LM: It is?
PEW: Mmmhmm.
LM: So, it’s just okay for you for them to just go take whatever they want out of the cupboard?
PEW: Yeah. You were doing it when you were their age.
LM: No I wasn’t.
PEW: Yeah you were, you took your dad’s baby-ruth bars or whatever. Or butterfingers.
LM: It was against the rules though, wasn’t it?
PEW: Yeah (inaudible)
LM: (inaudible)
PEW: (inaudible)
LM: How about respect for everybody, is that unreasonable?
PEW: No, LM, that is not unreasonable.
LM: So really, out of that list of 10 things, the only thing you found unreasonable was (pause) eating most of the meals, and you don’t care if they just take whatever they want out of the cupboard and then you wonder why your son has a weight problem, right? So, it’s really not as absurd as you claim it is. At least according to you, I just asked you the 10 and you really only had a half-objection to one and an objection to another.
PEW: Right, well there’s other rules that you have that aren’t on there.
LM: What rules would they be?
PEW: Well, obviously the flushing the toilet every time you go.
LM: That’s not mine. I don’t care. If they pee and don’t flush the toilet it doesn’t bother me, it bothers S2. S2 gave him the business about that, not me. What other rule?
PEW: I don’t know what you go going on there, but it’s some kind of freak show, though.
LM: You think so?
PEW: Yeah.
LM: Back to the insults and name-calling? Is that the only thing you know how to do well is insult and name-call?
PEW: Apparently, yes.
LM: Okay.
PEW: According to you.
LM: I’m just, hey, listen, I’m just trying to talk to you about the issues you’re bringing up and all you want to do is call me names and make fun of me.
(Then, she changed the subject.)
Later, she would exploit the language in #7 where is says, “…until an adult is up.” She focused on the word “up” and decided that it meant that we were sleeping-in until Lord knows when and the children had free reign of the home. I guess since we didn’t write, “Until the adults are fully alert, have completed their showers, gotten dressed, came back out of the room, and had a minimum of one cup of coffee - please don’t act like you’re outside on the playground…” well then that meant the children were unsupervised or otherwise left to their own devices while we were snoring away.
It was exceedingly frustrating how she would either not answer the question or, if she did, the logic simply didn’t exist. Her reasons were absurd and the “well, it depends” reply is just another example of her childish approach to everything adult.
Ironically enough, after recently attending another “Back to School Night” - I am reminded that every single year and in every single class the children have been in - there has existed a “Code of Conduct” list that unsurprisingly has very similar and in some cases - exact rules with known consequences. Back then, I pointed this out to PEW. Nowadays - it just doesn’t matter. I realize that it never did. Still, I’m left wondering how she feels about the Nazis who have been teaching our children under such awful conditions every year?
September 17th, 2009 at 7:43 am
She actually hung in there much longer on the conversation than mine would have….as soon as I said, “All right, let’s go through the list” I would have gotten “you can stick them up your ass!” and then she would have refused to discuss any specifics and gone on throwing the big carpet bombs (anxiety, freakshow, blah blah blah). I still get the carpet bombs…had one this week, just ignored her. I am sure she will throw it out there again, maybe at one of the school conferences when she has me trapped and she can try for some kind of validation from the teacher (too late, it is a small school and they already all know she is nuts).
September 17th, 2009 at 11:15 am
This could have been written by us a few years ago. We did the exact same exercise with SS, with the same results…better behavior from him and constant denial, name calling, and refusals to cooperate from the PEW. We even used the same comparison to the school rules. Difference is she wouldn’t have participated in a conversation like that. When DH tried, she called him a few choice names and either hung up or said “stop emailing me.” The result is now he’s 11 and refuses to listen to her, so isn’t doing homework and is growing an attitude from hell. But when he comes to our house, we still have rules and limits, and he behaves just fine.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:39 am
The whole mess with dressing them and doing everything for them is exactly what PEW did with my daughter. It took so long for my daughter to get use to doing things for herself. She is a very strong willed child and wants everything done for her since PEW will do it, “why not everyone?” My DW worked very hard and helped potty train my daughter. But after a weekend visit with PEW she would have accidents again. I had already told PEW that she was potty trained but she acted like the conversation never happened. I called her to ask “what is going on? She was potty trained when she left our house on Friday.” And PEW said, “Well, I’m putting Pull-ups on her, and she is changing them herself, and that’s progress!” …. I didn’t know what else to say. She continued putting diapers on my daughter till about a year ago, at age 7 or 8. My daughter is going to be 9 next month. We continued having bed wetting issues until last year. Now it’s occasional but I’ve got her an alarm clock that wakes her up at 2am so she will get up and try and that seems to have worked. This whole time she would do really good until she goes to visit PEW. One weekend would mean complete reprogramming (rules and behavior) and potty training. PEW’s mom once made a comment about my daughter refusing to take naps after she turned 2. My daughter took naps until she started kindergarten, and still did once in a while.
All the kids do the shoes on the wrong feet thing. My daughter would do these types of things hoping we would get tired of her doing it wrong and just do it for her.
I think one of the reason’s our PEW would do everything for our daughter, since it is usually in her nature to be lazy, it’s actually because she is lazy that she does these things. How much time and energy would she have to use to teach her child to complete a normal everyday task such as dressing, putting on shoes, brushing teeth, etc… How much time does PEW have when she sleeps in to the last minute jumps out of bed dresses herself, doesn’t eat or get any food for my daughter, dresses the her while she is still asleep, picks her up, and carry’s (another issue we had) her to the car, and so on and so on. It would take to much energy to get up earlier, wake her kid up, and be prepared to take the time needed to teach her these tasks. That kind of time comes from a parent that cares and is responsible for the children and their best interest’s, as these normal everyday skills will be needed and used for the rest of their lives. It takes work. PEW is to lazy to do anything that requires work, that’s why PEW will let my daughter eat whatever she wants. It’s easier than making her try something new. But PEW will quickly take the glory for everything we have taught my daughter (And I mean Everything!!!). DW taught my daughter how to tie her shoes. A month later my daughter came home from a visit and was so excited because PEW taught her how to tie her shoes (this comes with the usual DW and I don’t do anything with my daughter accusations)!! My daughter tells PEW everything she wants to hear also, it’s her way of coping with the PEW psychoness. Just play along and no one gets hurt. But it still causes more conflict because she tells her things that are untrue or exaggerated and now we are dealing with that too.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Ah, the list of rules. Our PEW just recently said our bedtime rules of “No talking, no making silly noises, close your eyes and go to sleep” was abuse. And that we were forcing SD to say them because “she doesn’t live there.” Riiiight.
Gotta love the logic.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
just a quick note with regards to the email (i don’t have time to get into the LOLs at the phone convo–pew goin crazy as usual): while i think it’s good to coordinate things, and as much as i may disagree with my ex’s lack of discipline (your email reminds me of it), i don’t think it’s really our place to Tell our ex’s how to discipline (unless they’re going too Far). they will never react well to it. in a perfect world….*sigh*…i just try to make some notes about behavior and what i did so that perhaps will influence Ex to do the same.
but, what’s with the snack thing? i don’t think kids should be punished by having their snacks taken away and being hungry. (with the exception of when they don’t eat their dinner then they don’t get dessert/nighttime snack, they need to reheat and eat their dinner)
I understand you’re trying to control a weight issue. but healthy snacks such as carrots& celery, granola bars, etc (if you have unhealthy ones that they’re trying to sneak then maybe they shouldn’t be in the house) should be a part of their day for between-meals. and Sometimes kids forget the rules– to ask. i know my child can’t go without snacks, and i’m (thin) adult and i can’t either. and withholding food could potentially lead them to have a bigger problem in their adult future with eating/not eating. food getting taken away as punishment. i don’t know, just something to think about. again, no one likes to be told what they’re doing is/isn’t good, so i will just say that i respect your household rules, you probably have good reason for them. my input is just that–humble outsider’s input. not meaning to ruffle any feathers.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Also, something that has always confused me…the dichotomy in the BPD PEW between laziness and control. She is extremely lazy when it comes to doing real parenting, things like implementing behavior charts, setting limits, taking SS places, etc. She’s always looking for the easy way out and the minimal disruption to her life.
But then she will do things like dress him or do his homework for him. It seems the things she chooses to do for him are what keeps him dependent on her, although that seems like more work to me. Teach him to be more self-sufficient! But I guess it is easier in the moment to tie a kid’s shoes than teach them to tie.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
clyde, didn’t see your post when I posted my reply. Exactly.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
What - The children get plenty of healthy snacks, and eat very good meals, with lots of protein to help with hunger issues. The problem at the time, and somewhat still today, is that PEW allows the kids to eat nonstop, to the point where they throw up because they have eaten too much. They had/have issues with even realizing what hunger is, literally 10 minutes after they eat a full meal they would be “starving”. The “snacks” are crap, junk food, and I’m sorry but if you can’t follow rules that include treating other people with respect, then you don’t deserve a snack. To the boys, and my kids somewhat, snacks are like crack, and very useful for positive reinforcement, if they act wonderful, they get them, if they don’t, then they get to try the next day. No child has starved to death by not being allowed to have a bowl of ice cream or cookies.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Clyde - You nailed it on the head, it’s also why the boys get everything they want, because she can’t stand to tell them no and then have to listen to them whine. And why they watch TV and play on the computer all day, it’s a free babysitter and she can do what she wants without them. The list goes on and on for most PEWs, they take the easiest route to getting anything done, whether it’s good for their kids, or even themselves.
September 17th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
“The children get plenty of healthy snacks,”
“No child has starved to death by not being allowed to have a bowl of ice cream or cookies.”
??
I think I’m just not understanding what type of snacks you’re talking about, and in whose house. I’m thinking of Healthy snacks for between meals (i.e. between lunch and dinner, or before breakfast–some preschools don’t serve til 9am) and before bed when some children (and ME!) are actually hungry.
Healthy snacks shouldn’t be denied, IMHO.
September 17th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
My husband’s PEG called the police to our house (after we had gotten residence of his 4yr old daughter) because she said we made the daughter sleep in the dark! The police couldnt believe it and commented on their records how stupid she was. Anyway Police officer checked on daughter who was fast asleep with night light next to her. Now, I taught my own kids go to go to sleep with the light out on their own as soon as they left their cots and went into their beds. No problem whatsoever and they get a full nights sleep and wake up refreshed in the morning and I would have done that with husbands daughter, but decided it wasnt such an important issue to start with. She had just moved in and needed some company to get to sleep with at first, which was fine. PEWs and PEGs just try and find the tiniest thing to complain about because they just want to be seen to be a better, or the best, parent of the poor kids involved. No matter that she lets the child go to sleep whenever she wants and therefore always has bags under her eyes (then blames the father because even school commented on it!) They cant deal with the fact that the other (decent) parent cares enough about the children to make boundaries and rules so they grow up into stable and decent people. They dont like what they dont understand!
September 17th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
what? - I think we’re getting hung up on the language.
They do get regular healthy snacks. I’m referring to an after-dinner “treat.”
September 17th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
And for the record, we’ve had people similarly argue about how withholding snacks/treats would cause some dire eating disorders and frankly, I just don’t buy it. It’s a tired argument that I won’t again entertain here. Our children are fed primarily healthy foods, with primarily health “bridge snacks” in addition to treats.
It would seem that there are a very, very small minority who appear to take exception to any sanction we’ve ever discussed on here and I firmly believe that this is part of the larger societal problem with disrespectful, undisciplined children.
September 17th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
well i hope you’re not referring to me. !! i think as long as you’re talking about “treats” then all’s well and good. snack deprivation on other hand not so good. and yeah i do think that causes some problems. again, no not the ice cream. i’m talkin bout the piece of toast on the way to school before breakfast cuz they’re starving. ya know? if the tide-them-over snacks (again such as a granola bar) are being withheld i think that would be awful. yes, awful. we all have had those days when we’re hungry and when we needed a few grapes and crackers at 4pm to get us until a 6pm dinner, etc. if someone said no you can’t- even though you’re hungry- because you forgot to ask that would be a Major WTF in my book.
i am thinking that is not your case though.
please tell me that is not your case. you think you’re being clear but perhaps i’m just tired today and you Are being very clear. indulge me
September 17th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
I don’t think this….:
“The children get plenty of healthy snacks, and eat very good meals, with lots of protein to help with hunger issues.”
…..could be any more clear. Maybe you need a healthy snack so you can comprehend
September 17th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Well, I just wanted to point out, regardless of what type of snack we’re talking about - the dire consequences some people often speak of won’t happen for a number of different reasons:
- Even if it were “healthy snacks” - the number of snacks that would be withheld would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. And if it were a lot, that would mean that disciplinary issues were completely out of control and indicative of much larger, much more serious parenting issues.
- You speak in terms of the extreme… sending them someplace “hungry” as a punishment, which is simply never the case. You speak of “deprivation.” So, yes - I am speaking to you specifically, as well as others generally.
It’s these type of extreme assumptions that make the PEW’s world go’round.
Finally, you’re overlooking the other obvious point of the post, which was that the children themselves brainstormed every single consequence. As I recall, the only additions we would have “suggested” were the ones that involved a “talking to.”
September 17th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
I actually don’t think the parenting issues are primarily about being lazy (although that add to it)….I think they dress and diaper them as long as possible, and give them junk food, and make sure they stay fat because of the fear of abandonment….they need to be sure that their child will need them, remain as dependent as possible. This is also why they constantly make up health issues, blow real ones way out of proportion, and take the kids to the doctor constantly, often in search of a someone that will diagnose something. My PEW tried this with my oldest….she wanted him diagnosed ADD, took him to about 15 different professionals searching for someone to diagnose something. They all said the same thing…..he is a happy healthy active and intelligent boy.
Also in some cases since BPD’s are world class projectionists the real issue might simply be them projecting their own feelings onto the child…..I suspect the whole “anxiety” exchange portion of Mr M’s post could be that.
September 17th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
well there you go. ok admin, i thank you for the comment because that clarified. but mister-m wtf is this:
- Even if it were “healthy snacks” - the number of snacks that would be withheld would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. And if it were a lot, that would mean that disciplinary issues were completely out of control and indicative of much larger, much more serious parenting issues.
dude, i know you’re just trying to make a point but in the process you’re advocating for this kind of consequence even for healthy snacks? do you not know how cranky i would get if someone told me when i was a kid i couldn’t have my healthy after-school snack bc i forgot to ask? that doesn’t help things #1 (usually when you’re hungry you get cranky) and #2 it’s just not right to do that. again i agree if you say ok no brownie after dinner since you are acting up. c’mon. you know withholding the Healthy snacks is not the OK consequence i don’t care who suggested it. you’re the parent, you know better that a timeout is going to be more effective than withholding healthy & needed(if hungry) food. that’s just common sense.
and no i’m not freakin talkin in the extreme mister-m sometimes i have no idea wtf you’re talking about. i’m saying that if you do what i just said above, that’s just wrong, and yes you Are sending them someplace hungry. that’s not extreme, that’s fact. {and yes it can eff them up with eating disorders whether it be overeating or undereating because of it.} and if it’s never done in your household, GOOD! but just don’t go advocating it anyway cuz you’re telling hundreds of other parents that it’s OK!
god sometimes you frustrate the hell out of me. sorry it had to be said.
September 17th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
On the subject of food deprivation my sister’s x actually filed a petition to modify custody and to become the primary custodial parent because “his mother (my sister) did not give him enough to eat.” The kid is “obese” on the standard height and weight charts and his father was arguing he didn’t have enough to eat.
I told if it was me I would file a one word response to that petition: “whatever” or maybe “ROFL”
September 17th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
what? - Nothing I said in my last reply “advocates” any such thing.
You typically have “no idea” what I’m talking about because you clearly don’t read and comprehend the written word. You create facts that are not there, like that my last comment is “advocating” for withholding healthy snacks as a quality choice of consequences.
Then, you follow up up your false comment by speaking in terms of extremes again.
Those are the reasons you have “no idea.” Simply because you have - no idea.
September 17th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Someone refresh my recollection….which amendment to the constitution was that that gave all children the inalienable right to eat snacks. Give me a break…we are talking snacks here right….not meals…not free speech….SNACKS!
?what if you can’t ask politely I certainly don’t feel compelled to give you a snack.
September 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
The “Snack” thing has gotten completely blown out of proportion. No pun intended. “Snack” as in “Treats” is understood in the original post Mister M. It’s understood that you are not with holding meals or food. I think someone is trying very hard to get a reaction out of you.
No where did it say food depravation.
Don’t eat your meal; don’t ask politely; then no “extra snack”. You use “Treats” as a positive reinforcement tool for good behavior and choices. It’s not with holding food as punishment.
This is being misread and misunderstood completely.
September 17th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Hummmmmm….. kinda sounds like Liz and/or Bob is back!
September 17th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
swat - I was thinking the exact same thing.
Also, what? obviously missed the very important part of the post that said the KIDS made the rule list, and the KIDS chose the consequences for breaking said rules, in her haste to chastise Mr M.
Kudos to Mr M and DW for teaching the kids right from wrong.
September 17th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
speaking of snacks … we were told we were abusive because we had “sugar free” snacks in our house and the 14-year-old stepdaughter felt that there was “NOTHING” to eat in the house because all of our chocolate snacks were sugar free… did i mention my husband, her bio dad has type 1 diabetes and that 14-year-old stepdaughter is about 30 pounds overweight? hence the sugar free…. yep, PEW said it was abusive as well…. go figure. my bio daughter eats the sugar free just fine…
September 17th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Swat, I was thinking the exact same thing.
What’s really funny is how the upper exchange described by LM is mimicking the lower exchange between Mister-M and Liz -er, I mean Box -er, I mean what?
September 17th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
what?….PEW, is that you? Couldn’t stay away, huh!
thealienatedones, totally hear you. We are “cruel” because we have healthy meals and snacks here, instead of eating McDonalds every day and giving SS bag after bag of Cheetos. She even uses it as a manipulation tool. Once she told SS “I have cheetos and root beer waiting for you in the car when I pick you up” so he just couldn’t wait for us to drop him off to her. AARGH.
September 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
STOP IT!
what? is not PEW.
September 17th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
I have read everything on this site and love it all, thank you MrM. The informtion you provide is a great tool for dealing with our own PEW’s. I had the Exact same conversation with my PEW about the rules the KIDS came up with and just laughed at her when she started with the name calling. When the police showed up 2 hours later i laughed at them and let them have a look around, then they heard the entire story and had a good laugh with me.
Keep up the good work MrM.
Oh and must be nice to know where your comments are coming from.
September 17th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
”’ Kelly ”’
My daughter won’t eat McDonald’s chicken nuggets or Fries anymore…… PEW fed her that happy meal so much she just got sick of it. LOL….
Now it’s all the promises of where she is going to take her next weekend and what they are going to do and Oh, I got a new “anything ridiculous a child wouldn’t really care about”, but you still better act excited about it….
Yeah, they all must have the same book… Make the child as anxious as possible before you get them.
My daughter use to act up in school after a call from PEW because she knew she was going to leave and wouldn’t be punished all weekend long. Regardless if we told PEW or not about my daughters conduct report from school, PEW will not discipline her. PEW has never been concerned about my daughters’ behavior or grades.
“Those are Daddies Rules you don’t have to mind them when you are with me.”
I think this is an exact quote.
September 17th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Then my parents were really stormtroopers. We never had snack foods in the house and didn’t snack. Meal times were meal times and that was that. Instead of any eating disorders I’m one of the only people I know that doesn’t have a problem with complusive snacking.
September 17th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
I could not disagree with what? more. Seriously. Haven’t you ever heard of things like going to bed without dinner for bad behavior? How about if you don’t like what I made then you can eat nothing. How about if you have bad manners at the table and don’t stop after a warning you are excused from the table. Food is a very high reinforcer and sometimes one of the best ways to stop bad behavior quickly. Please allow me to mention I am a board certified behavior analyst (graduate level education required) and yes, food can be used to get compliance (ie. 1 m&m for a pee pee in the big potty, 2 for a poo…) and it can be used in the opposite way as well . No it is not cruel. No it is not unusual. No it is not indecent and no you can absolutely not lose custody because you withheld a snack (even a healthy one) or a meal one in a great while. I really don’t think these kids are being starved or deprived of their nutrition.
For pete’s sake.
September 17th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
I love that the kiddos are the ones that came up with the rules! Way to empower them, Mom & Dad, that’s what helps kids grow up to become confident and independent adults.
As for “Those are Daddies Rules and you don’t have to mind them when you are with me” — okay, true statement. Our house, our rules… other house, other house rules. Believe it or not, kids can learn to adjust to two different parenting styles and two different sets of rules.
However, I would remind parents that your kids learn things you did not imagine you were teaching them. When a parent teaches/implies/outright states that a child doesn’t have to respect or mind their other parent — they are setting themselves up for future disrespect and defiance. I’ve seen this backfire on so many parents… they think they are gouging on the other parent, then they are all surprised when the kid starts treating them like crap, too.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Supermom… too bad that there are professionals who have scary power of your life and its involvement with children would would claim that is child abuse.
I’m serious. In fact, I’m beginning to believe that anything other than a “time-out” - and even then, NOT TOO LONG!!! …is child abuse.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Sorry Mister M I couldn’t resist…going back to my corner! lol
September 17th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
No problem. I just don’t want to see every dissenting opinion/voice result in people asking if it’s “THE” PEW.
September 17th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Even with married parents kids learn to adapt to differing standard rules. When I was growing up there were things my dad would let go that my mom wouldn’t and the same in reverse. That said, divorced parents with angery ex’s do have a hell of a time with rule enforcement. Mr. M is quite correct, anything other than a time out is going to be called child abuse. Even with time outs if the court thinks the duration is too long for the child’s age they’ll call that abuse. Really, everyone was born before the 90’s has suffered terrible childhood abuse at the hands of their parents.
Actually share an office with an attorney that regularly acts as a GAL, for a heafty fee of course. It’s funny to actually hear a childless young woman (she’s 29) lecturing people on how they correct their children.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
SuperMom - My background is in behavioral therapy with brain injured patients, and I use a LOT of my training in raising kids, lol. My psych degree has paid off
September 17th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
My cognitive psych degree went a long ways with my own kiddos too.
When they would make the same mistake over and over again… I would remind them of the single-trial aversive learning paradigm and ask “aren’t you smarter than a rat?”
LOL.
They are probably scarred for life because of me.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:47 am
JB - LMFAO, I’m going to have to use that one!
September 18th, 2009 at 11:17 am
“The problem at the time, and somewhat still today, is that PEW allows the kids to eat nonstop, to the point where they throw up because they have eaten too much. They had/have issues with even realizing what hunger is, literally 10 minutes after they eat a full meal they would be “starving”.”
Yes, that sounds like my SS. Sweet/salty/fatty foods are like crack, you’re right, and they use them for all sorts of non-hunger issues. I think it is important to recognise that these foods are superfluous–not necessary for nutrition and health. They are fine to have from time to time–as treats–
Healthy snacks are different–and my SS usually turn them down when offered.
For example: SS11: “Can I have some chips.”
Me: “Are you hungry? Dinner is in 1 1/2 hours….”
SS11: “Yes, I’m hungry.”
Me: ” How about an apple (carrot sticks, dried fruit etc)?”
SS11: ” No…I’ll wait…”
September 18th, 2009 at 11:26 am
speaking of using your psych degrees….
I told my SD when she was 2 that when she lied her head smelled bad. So when we suspected her of lying, we would ask to smell her head and over exagerate how horrible her head smelled. she’s now 4 and has figured out ways to “cheat” the system. When telling the truth she runs in “I’m not lying dad smell my head!!” and if she’s lying but wants us to smell her head and it smells of perfume/body spray/lotion/baby powder, obviously she’s sprayed her head, and not only is she lying about something she’s also trying to cheat, so she has to stand in the corner for an extra minute.
At times I find it comes in very handy
September 18th, 2009 at 11:56 am
“Snacks” are like crack to some kids. Children don’t even know when they are hungry. They eat because they are bored or they’ve been molded that way. My kids get a small snack in afterschool and that is all they get until dinner time. After dinner treat is popcorn and on the weekends we might get ice cream.
Sidenote:
In parenting I’ve found you have to take away something that will actually send a message and make them feel the consequence. If I tell one of mine “no tv” for the rest of the night, that particular kid might not care. If they don’t care about tv, they don’t feel punished. I have one child that could care less about tv, computer, video games, etc. She’s a crazy reader though. She is at the library every week. When she was younger, I took away reading when she was misbehaving. I had MANY people tell me how wrong it was and how you have to encourage reading, how i’m going to hurt her academically, blah blah blah. It was an extremely effective consequence, tailor made for my daughter. It wasn’t going to hurt her, she already loved reading, was reading FAR beyond her grade. So for her, I did no reading. For another no video games, for another no computer time, and guess what, for another NO SNACK!
Someone call CPS QUICK!
September 18th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Great list, and very similar to what happens in my house.
It’s so weird that most everyone with a PEW has problems from the kids overeating/overweight. My stepson is overweight because PEW let’s him drink soda and redbull all the time, eat junk food and sit on his butt. She’ll actually ask for the kids input on the grocery list…..huh? Oh, but don’t let DH say anything showing concern about the weight because as she says…”it’s his fault”. Yeah, we have him 2 weekends a month and 2 weeks in the summer and we made him fat. I know how eating balanced meals can do that to a person in PEW’s world, and how she completely ignores that all 3 of my kids are in no way overweight.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
@WVMOM — hey, where was the spit warning on that one???
Seriously, your solution (smelly head) was so funny and clever, you almost made me wish I was still raising my kiddos, just so I could use it.
Okay, I did say “almost”. LOL.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
- Even if it were “healthy snacks” - the number of snacks that would be withheld would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. And if it were a lot, that would mean that disciplinary issues were completely out of control and indicative of much larger, much more serious parenting issues.
This is advocating, Mister-M. In your words. And to all the posters. Read MY words:”(with the exception of when they don’t eat their dinner then they don’t get dessert/nighttime snack, they need to reheat and eat their dinner)” Yes I f-ing understand the whole TREATS for good behavior, or NO TREATS for bad behavior. I’m talking about…omg do i seriously need to repeat myself? THE HEALTHY IN BETWEEN MEALS SNACKS, AGAIN THE PIECE OF TOAST ON THE WAY TO SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY’RE HUNGRY BEFORE THEIR SCHOOL’S BREAKFAST. I’M TALKING ABOUT THAT NOT BEING TAKEN AWAY AS PUNISHMENT. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT HO-HOS OR SNICKER BARS. I’M TALKING ABOUT A GRANOLA BAR AFTER SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY’RE HUNGRY AND IT’S NOT DINNER TIME YET. JESUS CHRIST YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY! SNACKS ARE DIFFERENT THAN TREATS!
JESUS CHRIST YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING LUNATICS FOR JUMPING ON ME FOR SAYING THAT FOOD (THE FOOD THAT MAKES UP THEIR 3 SQUARE MEALS AND LIGHT HEALTHY SNACKS BETWEEN MEALTIME) SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AWAY AS PUNISHMENT.
PLEASE TELL ME. if you child was at Kindergarten and they eat lunch there. Let’s say one child was having a bad day and not following directions. Does the teacher have the right to say then “OK NO LUNCH FOR YOU!” yeah um NO! And a parent shouldn’t either!
If you guys have a problem with THAT you are fucking psycho.
i don’t have a freakin problem with mister-m not letting them have ice cream and cookies if they have bad behavior, etc. i WOULD have a problem if he was advocating for meals or healthy snacks that make up …omg i’m repeating again, which i shouldn’t have to but anwyway, he was advocating– “even if it were healthy snacks…”. c’mon dudes. seriously. get a clue.
and mister-m you’re such a fucking egotistical prick. you generally have no clue what i’m talking about? really? thanks a lot asshole. hope pew comes at you with fucking guns a-blazin’
September 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
fuck you all
September 18th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
LOL! Someone is having a bad day.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Oh my goodness: hello??
There is a serious failure of comprehension and communication here…
And an “anger management” problem….
This discussion really didn’t need to melt down.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
what? - see rules #1 #4 and #6 and get to your room. You’ll be permitted to come out when you’ve gotten control of yourself and learn how to type to me in an appropriate tone of voice.
NOW, MISSY!
September 19th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Hmmm hit a raw nerve there have we “what?”
and no snacks til teatime for you!!
September 19th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Hooooly shit. Umm, I’ve taken dinner away from my child for throwing a tantrum. She woke up, apologized and had 2 bowls of cereal. Starving a child is COMPLETELY different from taking away one meal. How many people every day skip breakfast because they are too busy? Do they collapse from hunger by lunch time? No. Now, if your child has diabetes or some other blood sugar issue, snacks are important. However, Mr. M has made it very clear that he was referencing treats. And it is not unreasonable to send someone to bed without supper. I did it, my mother did it, my grandmother did it, etc. etc. Wow, way to jump off the cliff of sanity.
September 21st, 2009 at 12:20 pm
It seems like the food issue never goes away. My daughter is 16 and is so effing sick of eating pb&j every weekend. If any one could fight over the food thing, it’s me. When her step mom was pregnant, my daughter wasn’t allowed to drink their milk because it was all for pregnant step mom. If I try to send food to their house for her (or if anyone else does, I’m not the only one who sees this happening, step mom’s mother babysits for them and she has to bring her own food and food for the toddler because they don’t provide any) they eat it themselves. I’ve intentionally sent junk food over there so they’ll eat it and hopefully get fat. I don’t make it into an issue, because she’s typically only over there for one full day where she doesn’t have access to real food from me at some point in the day, either Friday before she goes, or Sunday when she comes back. She takes snacks (or treats, my God, what is UP with that) in her overnight bag just in case it’s a “lean” weekend over there. They frequently eat dinner out before picking her up and then eat out again after dropping her back off. It’s not like they can’t afford food, but for some reason they act like they don’t want her to have any. She doesn’t have a weight problem. It’s unreal, and I can’t wait til she’s 18.
September 21st, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Actually, I’d say what? is really going the other way here. The kids get a pre-breakfast snack, breakfast, lunch, after school snack, dinner, and a treat. The obession with never taking food way from kids, and that would probably point out someone that routinely over feeds the kids. A person could go days without food. That’s obviously not ideal either, but the reality is missing a meal isn’t going to do anything to you. Teaching children that they must consistantly be eating on the other hand is a big reason we have the obesity problem we do. Kids get so many snacks that they are taught to eat whenever they feel slightly hungery. Then it becomes eating any time they don’t feel absolutely full, and problem eating is born. News flash: you don’t need to eat every time you feel a slight hungar pang. In fact, instead of snacks kids and adults should just get 6-8 ounces of water when they feel hungery between meals.
September 23rd, 2009 at 12:22 am
gee, the no snack thing should be interesting in my house. over here it’s a little more extreme:
SD (9), around 8pm-ish, coming home from basket ball practice (on our time, that PEW signed her up for), is stalling with homework. her dad is in the shower. i send heer back to her room and tell her, I admit, repeatedly, because apparently she is listening-challenged, to remain in her room and work on her homework until her father comes out of the bathroom. Next thing I know is PEW’s lawyer tells ours I am - are you sitting? - LOCKING HER IN A DARK CLOSET!!! There are no locks on the children’s bedroom doors, nor on the closets.
Sigh. life sure is… uhmmm… interesting?
November 13th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
[...] is here that I get on the phone and the discussion detailed in the post Top 10 Household Rules and Consequences takes place. You can click on that link to read it. I’ll wait for you to come back and [...]