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The Psycho Ex Wife is the true account of a marriage, divorce, and subsequent custody fight between a loving man, his terroristic ex-wife who we suspect suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder (at least from our armchair psychologist diagnosis), and the husband's new partner. We are not simply anti-mother or pro-father ... Read more

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Phone Call Series: Lies, Manipulation, Custodial Interference, Parental Alienation - Part 3

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So we’re dealing with the second extended stay with me for the summer of 2005 and the daily phone calls have turned into the PEW imposing negativism on the children regarding their time with us.  Additionally, she uses these phone calls as efforts to perform what I term a type of custodial interference.  How so?  Well, what the manipulative mother does is buy the children things… toys, games, animals, what-have-you and then tell the youngsters about them.  It doesn’t take much to get a 4-year old and a 6-year old very excited.  When you tell the children about such treats when they are away from you, well then their focus becomes the goodies which await their return.  As you might imagine, the rest of their time with me would be spent obsessing about getting home to their gifts.

In Part1, it starts small.  In Part 2, she increases her efforts slightly.  In Part 3, she’ll put her work into full effect.

After our usual “the call is being recorded” exchange and acknowledgments, S1 goes first…

PEW: How you doing?
S1: Good
PEW: What did you do today?
S1: Um, we went to the park that’s all
PEW: Really, oooooo.
S1: Yea.
PEW: Umm, who, were you with Nanny Suzie today?
S1: Yea
PEW: Soooo… Ohhhhh, soo how’s everything going?
S1: Good
PEW: Good?

Again, without the context offered by the first 2 installments, you would think nothing of this.  With context, my first thought (if not yours) is that she’s questioning his reply that everything is “good.”

S1: Yea
PEW: Yeaaahh, I miss you
S1: I miss you too

The immediate shift from him to her.  It’s all about PEW.  Of course, she’s initiating the negative thoughts of missing her and lays the foundation for more of the same.

PEW: Sooo, what’s new anything?
S1: No
PEW: Noooo, so just you guys and daddy?
S1: Yea
PEW: Yea? DW’s still down the shore?
S1: Yea

From there she goes right into interrogation mode, digging for information about other things (in this case, where DW is and what she is doing).  The discussion is barely about S1, if at all.

PEW: Yea? Bummer, Sooooo ummm, you guys bored or what?
S1: Yes, but I’m also mad.

Right back to the negative talk.  She doesn’t even disguise it.  At no point does she ask enthusiastically about what they’re doing, how they’re doing, and keeping the discussion up-beat.  She offers doubt when the kids say things are good.  She shifts to discussion of “missing her” instead of what’s good in their lives with dad.  Her questions almost always gravitate back to something negative, in this case, suggesting they’re “bored.”  Who the hell does this?  A psycho ex does, that’s who.

PEW: Why? What’s wrong?
S1: S2 is being a nudge
PEW: Who?
S1: S2
PEW: Why what’s he doing?
S1: I don’t know
PEW: You don’t know?
S1: I don’t know, it’s craziness, I don’t know what he calls it.
PEW: Oh. What’s he doing to ya?
S1: I don’t know cuz he never tells me
PEW: Oh, well why you say he’s being a nudge?
S1: Well it’s cuz he was just being annoying
PEW: Oh I see. Is everything else okay?
S1: Yes
PEW: You sound like you’re gonna cry or something.
S1: What?

Again, it’s barely subtle.  The primary focus of her discussion to this point has been boredom, what the grown-ups are doing, and missing her.  Then it’s onto the suggestion of crying, which he hasn’t been doing.  However, when you’ve been “trained” in a sense that this is what mom WANTS to hear, it’s easy enough to give her what she wants.  Despite repeated assurances to the contrary, she persists in asking questions about there being something wrong, he “sounds like” he’s going to cry “or something.”

PEW: You sound like you’re gonna cry.
S1: No
PEW: Oh (big sigh) Soooo, you’re coming home Sunday right?
S1: Yea
PEW: Hey, Can’t wait, you’re hermit crabs are waiting, the betas are still alive. I put them in big giant glasses, they like it.
S1: Are you feeding them?
PEW: Uhhuh. They swim all the way to the top and then the bottom and then the top, the bottom, going back and forth (S1 laughs)
S1: That sounds funny
PEW: Yea, guess they get bored in there
S1: Yea
PEW: Yea, so I fed your fish and your frogs and the hermit crabs, everybody’s fed and doing good.
(Unintelligible)
PEW: What?

Now, she’s upped the ante.  While spending the week with me, she’s gotten hermit crabs and fish for the kids and tells them more about them, what they’re doing, what she’s doing with them.  Further, despite the fact that I was not bringing them back to her the forthcoming Sunday, she plants the seed in his head that this is what’s going to happen, as if I sit down and discuss the schedule in such detail with our 6-year old son.

S1: Are you lonely back there?
PEW: A little. But that’s okay because I know you guys will be coming home soon, so I’ll watch some TV and you know
S1: Alright
PEW: Why, you lonely?
S1: Yea
PEW: Yea?

While he asked her first, she doesn’t hesitate to capitalize on the opportunity to continue the negative discussion about their time with us.

S1: Yea, without you
PEW: Awwwww, I can’t wait to see you so I can squeeze you
S1: I know

And there it is!  She got the reaction she was so desperately fishing for.

PEW: I’m gonna squeeze you so tight your little eyes are gonna pop out.
S1: Alright
PEW: Sooo, you been staying out of trouble?
S1: Yes
PEW: Yes? Go ahead, what were you gonna say?
S1: I wasn’t gonna say anything.
PEW: It kinda stinks that you guys had to come home from [vacation resort early] huh?
S1: Yea
PEW: Yea? What’s a matter bug? What’s wrong?
S1: I really miss you

A negative, followed by another negative, which is supported by a third negative.  It’s interesting to hear and later read.  At no time are her negative questions preceded by anything that would prompt a normal person to ask a negative question.  They just come out of the blue.

PEW: Awwww I miss you too. Did you tell Daddy that?
S1: Yes
PEW: What did he say?
S1: He said there’s nothing I can do about it
PEW: Oh well. But it’s only a couple more days right?
S1: Right.
PEW: Are you crying?

At this point, it probably would have been quicker for her to simply order him to start crying for her.  That’s what she wants.  That’s what she relishes.  That’s what she NEEDS.

S1: I’m starting to.
PEW: Why?
S1: I don’t know, I’m just sad

Of course he doesn’t know.  All he knows is that his mother keeps pestering him about crying and being sad, so the unconscious conclusion, I would assume, is to tell her what she so clearly wants to hear.

PEW: Awwww, S1. (Sigh) Well maybe Daddy will decide to bring you home a day early or something. Did you ask him to?
S1: No
PEW: Ask him to
S1: Why?

Now, the floodgates are open.  She’s now instructing him to ask me to come home early.  This is why I call it custodial interference.  She just cannot accept that the children have a wonderful time, a  normal life, and love their father.  So, the discussion focuses almost completely on the negative.  When it’s not doing that, it’s about her.  When it’s not doing that, it’s about finding out what me or DW is doing and where we are.  Finally, she just flat out tells S1 to ask me to cut the time together short and bring them home early.  This is her deliberate and willful attempts to simply undermine their time with me, which was in short enough supply as it was.  I would have to spend a frustratingly long amount of time trying to get them to focus less on what was going on back home with PEW and focus on their time with us and what they were doing here.  It’s a job that has to be undertaken with great care given their ages.

PEW: Don’t cry, you make me sad
(S1 cries)

Right back to the power of suggestion.  After the 4th or 5th mention of his crying, he finally cries.  But he doesn’t cry before she says, “don’t cry” - he cries AFTER.  Very telling.

PEW: S1, (laughs) S1 come on. You were having fun down there right?
S1: I was but I’m bored and I miss you
PEW: And you wanna come home?
S1: Umhmmmm

After laughing at him when he starts to cry, he tells the truth (“I was” in response to her saying “you’re having fun down there”), but then repeats back to her what she’s been prompting him to say all along to this point.  She doesn’t let up though… and I really wish you could hear her when she says “AND YOU WANNA COME HOME…” - it’s not a question, it’s said in a tone that is best described as someone who is brainwashing or programming another.  I can almost see her nodding her head as she puts the screws to him.

PEW: Where’s Daddy now?
S1: Ummm, I don’t know
PEW: Is he, he’s not standing right there?
S1: No.

She keeps at it, checking to see if I’m within earshot…

PEW: Ohh, ok. Well do you wanna put him on and I’ll ask him?
S1: No mommy, I’ll ask.
PEW: You’ll ask him?

Can you feel the prompting?  The direction she is giving him?

S1: Yea, hold on, (to LM) “Dad, can you um bring me home a day early? I wanna go home a day earlier.” (Dad answers but you can’t hear what he says) Alright well…
PEW: What did he say?
S1: He said I’ll discuss that with your Mother
PEW: Okay, alright, well does S2 want to talk to me or no?
S1: Wait, I’ll see, (to S2) “S2 you wanna talk to Mommy?”

If you’re not in some way infuriated by reading this to this point, you must have ice-water running through your veins.  It’s flat-out despicable what she’s doing.  The discussion continues with S2…

S2: Yes
S1: Okay, you can’t be crazy
S2: Hi Mom
PEW: Hi pumpkin, what are you doing?
S2: Good
PEW: Good?
S2: Is S1 crying for you?

Now, call me crazy, S2 is only 4 at this point, but I can’t help but wonder if he was “in tune” enough to recognize S1’s crying for what it was… a show for PEW.  He asked if S1 is crying FOR her.  Pretty telling if you were to ask me.  That’s exactly what he was doing.  He was crying “for” her, as in, a performance.

PEW: Yea
S2: You hear him?
PEW: Yea. You’re not crying are you?
S2: No

Her suggestions to S2 weren’t always as effective, obviously.

PEW: Oh. You having fun? Huh?
S2: Good
PEW: Yes. What are you guys doing? What are you doing today?
S2: Playing with Nanny Suzie. SD1 and SS1 aren’t here.
PEW: Oh I see
S2: They aren’t here yet
PEW: Oh are they coming?
S2: What?
PEW: Are they coming?
S2: Two more days they’re gonna be here, they’re not coming
PEW: They’re not?
S2: They’re not gonna be here they’re not coming

Now she’s prying for information about DW’s whereabouts from a 4-year old.  Good grief.

PEW: So S1 said you were nudging him are you nudging him?
S2: What?
PEW: Are you nudging S1
S2: Yea, I was being a nudge. What does nudge mean?
PEW: It means you’re annoying him
S2: I was annoying him
PEW: Why? Be nice
S2: I was doing stuff to him
PEW: He said that you were annoying him. What is S1 doing now?

Again, she can’t have a discussion with S2 about S2.  Her focus is on whether or not her efforts with S1 are taking hold and she directs S2 away from his discussion about his day to what’s going on in the room behind him.

S2: He’s talking to Daddy
PEW: Is he still crying or no?
S2: No. He just has the crying face. It looks like he’s crying but he stopped crying
PEW: Oh (laughs)
S2: Now it looks like that
PEW: Oh
S2: You gotta come here and see his face

This one is wise beyond his years.

PEW: (Laughs) Cute. It’s far far away
PEW: So
S2: I love you mommy, bye
PEW: Bye

Catch that?  It’s “far far away.”  Relentless she is.  That’s where their discussion ends and S1 returns to the phone…

S1: I wanted to talk to you again
PEW: Oh okay, what’s the matter?
S1: I wanted you to have a good night and sweet dreams

That’s something I always said to the boys and still do today.

PEW: Sleep tight buddy it’s only two more days. Tomorrow’s Friday right?
S1: Right
PEW: And then Saturday and then Sunday, that’s the day!
S1: Alright
PEW: And then hopefully maybe daddy can bring you up early and we can go see mommom or something

She just….. doesn’t….. stop.

S1: Alright
PEW: Well after you see your fish and everything. Alright?
S1: Okay, well bye
PEW: Bye
S1: Love you
PEW: Love you too, you putting daddy on?
S1: Um, alright and maybe you can talk to him about this weekend, come up a day earlier
PEW: Alright
S1: Bye
PEW: Bye
S1: I love you
PEW: I love you too

From there, I would get on the phone…

LM: Hello
PEW: Hello. Ummmm, so what’s up with S1?
LM: I don’t know. I told you he’s, we were just having fun with the dinosaurs, ate dinner, we’re having a good old time and then he calls you and he does the whining baby voice.
PEW: So he doesn’t really want to come home?
LM: I don’t know. Who initiated that conversation?
PEW: He did. He said I wanna come home. He said that last night too. He’s like I can’t wait til this is over, when can I come home?

LIAR!  Keep in mind now, I’m “in the discussion” and haven’t heard what has transpired prior to our discussion here.  She flat-out lies about what took place on the phone and throws S1 right under the bus in the process.

LM: And how do you help him understand when he needs to spend time with his father?
PEW: He has been spending time with you. I mean I can’t explain to him why his dad moved, I really can’t, only you will be able to explain that to him. So I mean if he was up here
LM: Well I mean that’s really not the issue is it?
PEW: What?
LM: You have to, the point I’m trying to make is, we try to encourage, make sure we encourage good relations with the other parent.
PEW: Umhmm
LM: You’re still stuck on the move which is about you and not about the kids, instead of working to explain to him that it’s important for boys growing up to spend meaningful time with their parents, and that this is part of the process.
PEW: Yea, but you know what, see I don’t condone the fact that they are four years old and six years old and you put something else in front of them, I don’t know what it is, finances, or a woman, I don’t know what it was, but I can tell you that it upsets me that I’m on the other end of the phone for the second time and he’s, he’s upset, and I, I you know

Again, her decision to divorce and do all the other things she’s done since then are non-existent in her mind.  In her warped mind, nothing that occurred prior to the move happened nor did it have any impact on anything.  Only my relocation did.  She breezes through life, disavowing any responsibility for any of the changes that have occurred in the children’s lives.

LM: Well I told you before, I can’t explain to you why he has a great day, we have a great dinner, playing with the dinosaurs and then he calls you and puts on a show. I’m not saying he’s not upset and I’m not saying he does’t miss you, but what he does is he elicits the response from you that he knows he’ll get by presenting to you the nnnnnnnnaaannnnaaannna thing that he does
PEW: The nnnnannnnannna thing, they’re little boys LM
LM: Yea, I understand that
PEW: And they need their mother
LM: Of course, and they need their father too
PEW: Yea, and they do. Their father shouldn’t have left them

See how she does that?  Nevermind that she destroyed their family and initiated the divorce proceedings and the custody disaster.  Only my move is responsible for everything.

LM: Their father shouldn’t have left them. So you’re back on the move kick? How about the fact that their mother destroyed their family for the reasons that she stated were “You don’t make enough money, you don’t have enough things and I basically just don’t treat you right.” How do you explain to a 6 yr old and 4 yr old boy that your mother quit counseling three times?
PEW: Well when they get older and they get to know you they are going to know exactly
LM: Well that’s beside the point, I know how you feel, everybody’s going to know the real me and all that stuff that you’ve been unable to convince people who don’t buy your fabrications, your distortions.
PEW: Your own family, your own family, does your family?
LM: You keep saying that
PEW: Yea
LM: I have regular discussions with my family, and unless they are lying to me, they don’t speak to you, so I mean, I don’t know what it is that you think you know, but please, I’m telling you, you’re just not really accurate in that area either
PEW: No I don’t speak to them but you can’t tell me

Translation:  I don’t know, so I just make it all up as I go along…

LM: No, okay, but you do this, you know what you are doing, you do the button pushing thing, and that makes you feel good about yourself, but the fact still remains is, you keep hanging the circumstances we are in, on my move, and the reality is, and I don’t know when it is you are going to realize this, it was your decision…
[S1 comes into the room and asks Dad about S2 going to the bathroom]
S1: What did mommy say, can we go down a day early?
LM: I don’t think so buddy
S1: (Whines)
LM: We’ll talk about it later. (To S2 now) You pooped your pants? What happened buddy?  You already pooped twice? (to PEW now) I’ll have to call you back.

Saved by the poop.

During the callback, there was nothing more that is relevant to what I’m showing in this series - and that’s how sickening her manipulation of the boys was.  It was more mindless discussion on what the definition of a vacation was (according to her, I had to be away from home or I wasn’t entitled to have an uninterrupted week of time with the children).  This demonstrates that, even from a distance, a PEW can inject herself into our daily lives, interfere with our custodial time, and upset the boys to the point where all they want to do is get back to her, because that’s what she wants - not what they want.

After I listen to what actually took place during the conversation, I’m incensed and I address it with her the next night, which will open Part 4.

15 Responses to “Phone Call Series: Lies, Manipulation, Custodial Interference, Parental Alienation - Part 3”

  1. Child Custody - Phone Contact, Custodial Interference, Parental Alienation Part 2 | The Psycho Ex Wife Says:

    [...] the next installment, she’ll ramp it up even more, buying the children things, telling them about it, and prompting them to ask me to come [...]

  2. JB Says:

    Reading this raises my adrenalin.

    As soon as I get over my urge to bitch-slap your PEW into next week, I start combing through my co-parenting course materials to see if I can incorporate any of this into it (not the actual conversations, just the overall description of the actions)… because other people ought to be able to learn from this.

  3. Mister-M Says:

    The problem you’ll have, JB - is that most people will NEVER know that this is happening. If not for my recording of the discussions and, for some bizarre reason, her agreement to allow the recordings (and allegedly recording them herself) - how would I ever know the depth of her efforts?

    Certainly, I would be suspicious and it’s clear that I have suspicions prior to actually listening to the conversations after-the-fact. Still, I would never really know for sure and would never really be able to “prove” it.

    I hope you can find some way to give your clients an understanding of this rather covert method of parental alienation. I think it’s going to be very difficult for you to do so. Chances are, many high-conflict ex-spouses aren’t going to be as accommodating as mine was (for a short period, anyway) and agree on tape to allow the recording of the conversations.

    Additionally - when brought up in future custody evaluations, none of this “proof” would make any difference.

    The best you can hope to do is continue to educate your clients about all of the ways in which parental alienation efforts can be deployed and implore them to never give up their opportunities to counteract it.

  4. JCB82 Says:

    Im SO sorry for your poor kids Mr-M. What an evil, manipulative cow she is. Those poor little lads have been “brainwashed” into reacting the way she’s taught them, like you say. Just keep reminding yourself that she is twisted, but as long as your sons have you and DW and her kids they will always have a chance of having a loving, caring, happy family. My husband’s PEG has told his 5yr old daughter (who currently lives with him) she will get a puppy if she tells the Court she wants to live with her mammy, and she will get to go to America on holiday. So now she wants to live with her mammy cos her puppy will miss her otherwise. (This has been promised since April.) This PEG is a selfish bi*ch. I await part 4 to see how things continued.

  5. anonymous Says:

    She’s checking to see if you’re standing there listening. WTF?!? You’re f-ing *recording* the call. Who cares if you’re standing there listening too? Stupid PEWs.

  6. haditnow Says:

    PEH does this same thinly veiled PAS crap. His latest is to go on and on to DS15 about how the weather will be in the am when he has to walk to school (the high school is less than a mile so he has to walk or I have to drive him). Of course he is FOTY because he HAS to drive DS on the days he has him because he lives 3 miles away.

    PEH: did you walk today or did your mom drive you
    DS:I walked, it wasn’t raining or anything
    PEH:it really sucks that you have to walk, your mom should drive you. It is supposed to rain tomorrow, make sure you tell mom so she drives you.
    DS:ok
    PEH:if it were up to me I would complain to the school so they would send the bus but I guess your mom does not care, it’s too dark in the am too.
    DS:dad they are not going to send a bus, if it rains mom drives me
    PEH:ok make sure you remind her

    So of course now DS has been brainwashed and immediatly starts getting anxious about rain, me driving him etc. I finally had to sit him down and say “Listen, if it rains I drive you right? Have I EVER made you walk?” “No” “There is no need for you to be anxious about this, if the westher is bad then you get out you can call grandma right”? “yes”
    “Do I check the weather and adjust my schedule?” “yes”
    “ok so you understand that you do not need to be worried?” “yeah, dad got me all worked up, he gets mad because he has to get up early on his day off and drive me”

    So see even a child old enough to fully understand what the PAS’er is doing still feels anxious and needs reassurances. It makes me want to drive over and kick that jackass in the nuts.

  7. MR Says:

    Just from hearing only my daughter’s side of the conversation, I am 100% certain that this is precisely the same kind of telephonic alienation, guilt-instilling, interfering, manipulating BS that my 13 yo daughter has endured all her life, even to this day. Only now am I beginning to her daughter respond in such a way that she’s onto it and doesn’t want to participate anymore.

    Family Court is infuriating because these transcripts PROVE that PEW is an unfit/abusive parent/disordered. And yet even with this legally-obtained evidence of emotional abuse and custodial interference, Family Court will not even consider it.

    Daughter will be in therapy all her life due to this abuse. What an awful prison it must be to be faced with the trying to please your needy Mommy, but the only way to do that is to reject your Daddy who you love so much.

    All we can do is give our kids the tools to cope, survive, endure, and get through it. Take heart Mister-M, eventually the kids start to see through this nonsense and resist it. I’m seeing it with my kid now, though this has not stopped PEG from continuing to try it.

  8. Manibeaux Says:

    Oh my god! Reading this was absolutely infuriating. Our PEW employs similar tactics but thus far we haven’t recorded any of her calls. I’m sure they would parallel these very closely. Sick sick sick.

  9. Anonymous Says:

    Very sad. to say the least.
    Same situation here… It’s very frustrating and sad when you see them do this and the effect on the child(ren), it tears you apart inside that someone could be so cruel and sick as to do this to their own child. Putting a much-too-heavy and false burden on them, or trying to twist their minds to accommodate their sick fantasies. Each time it happens I really wish I could sock the loser in the gut and say “here, feel some of what you’re doing to your kid.” But instead I write in our communication notebook “please refrain from…” with no effects.
    How do you deal with it??! Have you found any successful remedies? I mean you think you could delegate them being sent to a nut house with that kind of behavior.
    (I only feel comfortable since this is widely read remaining anonymous giving this one small example. The others are longer and specific…)
    My young DS after a transfer: “Daddy misses me so much when i’m gone - he cwies and sweeps in my bed missing me. I hope he’s okay”
    SERIOUSLY?! I know the other parent does this because they have said in the past that it makes him “feel good when DS gets sad about transfers”
    I mean what do you even say to that??
    Children should NOT be put in that situation!
    Sorry- your true story struck home, i’m just replaying our ‘episodes’ of this behavior in my head -as recent as last week, a BIG example of this- and getting nauseous all over again.
    Isn’t right…

  10. admin Says:

    I wish we could post the recordings, because her voice is just so evil, absolutely no emotions or care for her own children. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear her talking to them, you can actually hear her mind spinning to come up with the next way to manipulate them. And then hearing the kids afterwards ask “why doesn’t Mom want to hear about the fun things we do?”, still to this day, she doesn’t give a shit about them, just her personal agenda.

  11. Schottsax Says:

    “the real you”…ROFL…my PEW says this exact thing all the time to people….my wife and I joke often that the real me is suddenly going to come out (cue spooky music).

    I guess its some kind of super-rationalization to explain away any observations by others that you are not the horrible monster that she is so invested in creating to justify all her horrible actions.

  12. admin Says:

    Schottsax, LMFAO, you would not, or maybe you would, believe how many times LM and I have joked about the same thing, especially when the “real” LM is going to come out and start abusing me. I’ll be sure to let everyone know when that happens. He’s obviously veeeeerry good at holding it in ;) Five and a half years and not a single slip-up.

  13. Kmorgan Says:

    Same situation here. Our daughter was talking to her mom about a carnival they had at schooland her mom asked who she hung out with. Our daughter said a few girls’ names and her mom went on to say how it was probably fun but not the same as being with her friends near her mom’s…! Yep they all do it! She’s done the same thing with the drop off too. Her mom cried and cried and of course our daughter came home and went straight to her room. It’s so wrong and sad…

  14. GGRR Says:

    “The real you…” that’s a beautiful case of projection, isn’t it? Think of all the “when did you realise she was BPD” posts…

    PEW’s know that they are just keeping it together with a social veneer, most of the time, and that the needy, disturbed, raging, vengeful self lies just underneath the surface.

  15. Child Custody - Phone Contact, Custodial Interference, Parental Alienation Part 4 | The Psycho Ex Wife Says:

    [...] on “Why Co-Parenting Doesn’t Work”, or learn how to win child custody with a custody coach.In part 3 of the phone call series, PEW had ramped up her efforts to interfere with my parenting time by telling the children to ask [...]

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