The Psycho Ex Wife

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From our family to yours, we wish everyone the Happiest Thanksgiving of all for all of you and your loved ones.

May your day be full of great food, great family, and great friends.  Most importantly, may be it full of peace and love for all of you.

Most Sincerely,

Mister-M, DW, and the crew

A reader wrote to us about a post we made a while ago entitled When Should the Children Have a Say?

Dear LM & DW,

Man, do I feel your pain. It wasn’t until today that I found out about Borderline Personality Disorder, and WOW!! This fits like a glove! My ex is not nearly as bad as yours, but still, I’m almost 20 years into it. I’m so relieved that I can finally call it a disorder, and that I can start formally educating my kids about it (17 & 14). I do not plan to tell them it’s a disorder yet, just help them when they are having trouble by using the correct terminology, etc. when they are experiencing her BPD.

With respect to your post on 1/28/2008 titled “When Should the Children Have a Say?”, there is a reader who claims that you are using technicalities to get a rise out of her. I personally felt like you let the reader off lightly.

I’ve been divorced for 9 years now, and there hasn’t been one year where she hasn’t just flat out made up her own interpretation of the holiday/summer schedule. And it’s usually a complete surprise to her that I have a differing opinion. The visitation plan, even when it’s spelled out in plain English, is always up for her interpretation, and therefore I am at her mercy. You can never make long term plans without worrying about what she’ll “make up” and assume as common knowledge.

Without technicalities, you are subjecting yourself to her control forever. Without technicalities you have to tip-toe around with her, hoping that you don’t set off one of her “thermonuclear explosions”, causing you to lose real time with your kids.

I love your site - I hope you keep it going. Write a book - I’ll buy it!

~BH

BH’s reference to the post I linked in the opening was actually a follow-up to the issues that preceded the Christmas Holiday in 2007, which resulted in my getting a make-up holiday after PEW’s custodial interference during Christmas in 2006.  Back then, a reader questioned my decision to enjoy the extended period of time I was having with the children over the holidays - time that was awarded to me after the PEW was found guilty of contempt of court.

This reader offered some additional insight I hadn’t considered when I responded in the original post and, with the holiday season upon us and PEW’s and PEH’s all over the world beginning to ramp up for a new campaign of terror to destroy them for people gets underway - the timing was uncanny.

Among some other thoughts… I suggested to BH that his children are old enough to start engaging in some dialogue about the issues they’re experiencing which may culminate in his deciding to share the book Understanding the Borderline Mother with them.

Feel free to add your thoughts regarding his situation.

Disruptive phone contact and phone call interference is something I’ve written about extensively on the blog.  It is also one of the most common issues facing those who follow the blog, whether they’re checking back regularly or simply passing-through.

In the early days, given my non-custodial parent status, frequent and substantive phone calls with the children were extremely important to me.  Not that they still aren’t, but my approach has changed dramatically over the years given what I am actually able to manage about the situation.  Back then, it would seem I was stone-walled at every turn.  There are several common tactics that the vindictive, psycho ex-wife or psycho ex-husband employ when it comes to phone contact.

• Not answering the phone at all.
• Not returning calls when messages are left.
• Hovering over the children during phone calls to “listen-in” or tell the child what to say.
• Forcing the children off of the phone abruptly.
• Interrupting the phone calls to speak to the children while they’re on the phone.
• Having the television on, loudly, to the kids’ favorite television show or movie.
• Seeking to engage the normal parent (usually in front of the children) prior to allowing the children to have the phone.

Later in the fall of 2005, well after the recorded events of the summer had come and long gone, I still was having significant problems when it came to calling the children.  Despite these ongoing problems, I always made sure that the television was off and the children had a reasonable level of privacy when they were with me and PEW called, save for the period where I was recording the phone calls with PEW’s permission.  I tried to get some reciprocation through another failed email effort. I did what I could, by calling at around their normal bedtime so that I didn’t interfere with expected activities that would likely be taking place earlier in the day. I rather enjoyed using that as tuck-in time given the distance.

PEW,

Phone calls - I don’t know which way would be easiest, but I’d like to come up with some sort of idea for when I call the boys. I know S2 can be ornery when it comes to phone conversations and we’ll just have to make due. But I have asked before to have them set-up someway/somehow where they will be “less distracted” when I call to chat with them but it still happens. It’s tough to have a conversation with them when they have one eye on the TV or they are involved in something. I don’t know if you can have them go to their room for a short chat when I call or if it would be easier for you to have them call me when they are set-up at some point when they are ready to settle down for the evening - but it would be helpful if you could assist me with this. I’m not sure what else to suggest.

Let me know what you think.

~LM

For those who follow the low-contact principles that I beg of you to maintain, the comment “let me know what you think” isn’t one of those things you should be doing. Nothing invites an escalation more… than an invitation such as this. Make requests without inviting feedback. Chances are you know it will be denial and/or refusal. Asking them to send it back to you is silly. Truth be told - when you’re dealing with the high-conflict ex, you probably are best served not making the suggestions at all.

LM,

As far as the phone calls, I try my best to make sure there are minimal distractions when you call. As you know, by the time I get home with them it is approximately 5:45, this gives me about 2 hours to do dinner, homework, baths, spend some quality time with them, etc, etc… Two hours is not a lot of time and I have many additional responsibilities besides your phone call, not that the phone call isn’t important because it is very important. Here are my thoughts, I will do my best on my end, but you are going to have to do your best to get them to attend to the conversation, however you can. Please stop harrassing me about this. They don’t always want to talk to me when I call them at your house and guess what, I understand. The most important thing that you need to realize is that the conversations are for them, not for you. When they need to talk to their daddy, they spend extra time talking to you, don’t they? I’ve heard S1 and S2 have prolonged conversations with you on nights when they really wanted to talk to you whether there was a toy in the room or not. I’m glad you want to talk to them, but it’s not my job to MAKE them talk if they don’t want to.

~PEW

Well, at no time did I ask her to “make them” talk to me. Yes, on the rare occasions when they weren’t distracted by other goings on, we did have conversations that one wouldn’t expect with children so young. That will happen when you ask them to tell you about their day and details about the things they were enjoying having done. However, by calling at bedtime, I made the effort not to interfere with her meaningful time and did so under the assumption that television, movies, video games, etc. would long be finished. Oh, and a single email about this doesn’t constitute “harassment.”

PEW,

I didn’t ask you to “make” them talk to me. I simply asked you to assist in minimizing distractions whenever possible. They will talk as long as they wish. What is tough to overcome is:

• They don’t talk because they are watching the show that is on TV.
• They hurry me off the phone because you told them that you are putting a movie in for them.
• They want to hang up because you have some other activity going on.

I call at around 8PM guessing that things may be settling down, perhaps they are getting ready for bed or similar in an effort NOT to interfere with your time.

My intent is not to “harass” you about it. My intent is to get the minimum amount of cooperation from you on matters relevant to the children and my interaction with them. It is asking no more than what I ensure for you when it is time for them to talk to you. I wouldn’t be asking again if I didn’t feel the need to based upon my experiences.

Thanks.

~LM

Continued reasoning in 2005 is the result of years of doing the same thing over and over and over and over again and expecting a different outcome. I guess I was insane by that point, probably long before.

LM,

It’s not quite like that. I always turn the TV off when they are talking to you, but it just so happened that I was doing something important the other night when you called and I couldn’t stand over them and make sure they listened to you. I do minimize the distractions.

I never tell them “let’s rush off the phone with Daddy so I can put a movie in for you”. They ask me if they can watch a movie and I say “let’s call Daddy first so you can talk to him, then I’ll put the movie in when you’re done talking”

I would have them call when they are IN bed, but then you’d be harrassing me that it was after 8 o’clock.

Your harrassment of me for every little thing has got to stop. Major issues you have with me, yes, I absolutely want to hear about, but I feel like you go out of your way to invent things to complain about when it comes to me. You have nothing else right now, so I gotta hear about the phone calls, right?

~PEW

Some lies and some excuse-making. Fact is, she NEVER turned the television or video game system off when I called. When I say “never,” I mean “NEVER.” Never. Not a single time at that point. You have to laugh at her explanation of the movie thing. She didn’t have to say “let’s rush off the phone” to get to a movie. It’s implied that the faster that they get off the phone with me, the faster that they can get to their movie. That’s a good enough defense for her. Oh, and let me be clear that at no time has she ever initiated a phone call to me from the children unless it was a call-back. Not a single time since we split until 2004. Every rare once-in-a-while, the children may ask her to call me and they do. Even those moments are rare and to be expected. For the most part, that comment by her is almost completely false, too.

It seems from the next email I sent that we must have had a phone discussion the night before. It would seem from what I say that the matter was agreed and settled. So, I seem confounded by the reply above.

PEW,

I made a simple request. I did not and do not harass you. Fact is, I reasonably discussed my concerns last night, despite your obvious sarcasm. Confounding is that you would continue today after we discussed this last night. I thought the matter was addressed and settled - you communicated that doing what you can to keep the boys from being distracted when I speak to them was not important to you. I explained why it is important to me and why it should be to you. You don’t care. I guess that’s the end of the story.

~LM

I didn’t say it was settled to my satisfaction, just that she made her position clear and there was nothing more I was going to be able to do about it.

LM,

I do care and the phone calls are important to me. If you stopped calling or caring, I would certainly have two very unhappy little boys. They need their Dad, I know that and I have always known that. I answered your email, I wasn’t continuing anything. What I said was that I try my best and sometimes I will fail because things come up that require my immediate attention.

You really need to stop portraying yourself as some sort of victim. I do my best under the circumstances, but you’re just never happy.

~PEW

Like what? What comes up at 8PM, the children’s bedtime, that requires your “immediate attention” that you can’t turn the television off or send them into the dining room or their bedroom to have some quiet discussion with their father? Answer: Nothing.

As with most things involving a psycho-ex - it’s all about power and control.

After Part 7 of the custodial interference via phone calls series, we begin winding things down and we’ll make this the conclusion of the series.

For one thing - I’ve beaten this topic to death, but felt it was important to see how a child’s mind can be influenced by a disordered parent.  Parental alienation exists and it’s an effective tool of the malicious ex-partner when left unaddressed.  When it’s done on the phone, you’re not very likely to figure out what the hell is going on and why.  I know I didn’t.  I had my suspicions, but could never prove anything.  The recordings simply confirmed those suspicions.  The other reason this is the conclusion is that after this phone call, she would refuse to allow the recording of phone calls.

The was one phone call between the one I document today and the one detailed in Part 7.  It was more of the same where she initiated discussions about the things she had bought them and that was the bulk of their discussion.  Again - it contained nothing about what they were doing or did or anything about the kids.  It was all about the gifts, all about PEW, and all about practically counting the minutes until they would be reunited again.

In this phone call, which took place after our August 2005 court hearing and during my next custodial time, we discuss a disciplinary action I took because S1 refused to eat his dinner.  We were supposed to go fishing at the lake.  His refusal to participate in dinner cost him that excursion.  If you’ve read any of the stories in the discipline category - you’ll realize that the approaches to discipline between PEW and I are quite different.  She has none.  I do.  There is no means of discipline I could impose that PEW will ever think is appropriate.  This makes sense because she simply has no concept of boundaries, expectations, or managing the children’s behavior (in positive ways or through appropriate disciplinary action).  Aside from her outbursts, smacking them in the mouth or head, or bull-rushing them into fearful situations, she just couldn’t bring herself to depart from the buddy-buddy Disneyland Mom gift-giving role, probably because she viewed the children’s disappointment at having to be punished as them not loving her.  See: Abandonment Issues.

As a result - she informs the children that they don’t have to follow the rules at our home.  Further, she undermines my punishment by promising them a fishing trip when they got home.  (Of course, in keeping with the theme that she doesn’t do much with the kids directly, someone else - her brother - would be responsible for providing that.)  After opening with our mutual recording exchanges, she starts her conversations with S2.  In his usual fashion, he was short and got off the phone quickly.  Nothing too unusual about the discussion.  Then, “the target” we know and love as S1 got on the phone…

(more…)

Being the glutton for punishment that I obviously was in the summer of 2005, part 6 was a morning phone call.  I actually took an evening phone call from her the same day.

PEW: Hello? You recording?
LM Hey. Yes, I sure am.
PEW: Okay, good.
LM (inaudible)
PEW: Yeah, you change your mind?
LM No, I didn’t change my mind, did you change yours?
PEW: No.
LM I did speak with my father, though.
PEW: Mmmhmm.
LM He asked me to ask you what he told you.
PEW: Hmm?
LM To ask you what he told you.
PEW: Well, I didn’t really talk to him.

I knew this.  She often lied about such things.  I’m not sure I even talked with my father at that point, but I did confront her with the above - mostly because that’s what my father probably would have said to me, had I talked to him or not.

LM Why would you suggest then that my father would be calling me?
PEW: I don’t know. I can’t believe that you did this to the kids.

QUICK!  MUST CREATE DIVERSION!  MUST CREATE DIVERSION!!!

LM I really wish you would stop saying that I did anything to the kids. The kids are, again, downstairs having a grand old time. Disappointed that you’re not coming down here to get them.
PEW: That was never… that was never supposed to happen.
LM Well, I guess you didn’t communicate very well, then. But all I told them is that we forgot to work on the specifics and that uh, if things didn’t work out for today that I would take them back on Tuesday night because I had to go back up there anyway.
PEW: Well the, I want to call them back at bedtime.
LM You can talk to them now if you want.
PEW: No, I don’t want them getting all upset and then (long pause) (inaudible) This definitely has to be the most vindictive thing you ever did.
LM I’m not doing anything to you and I’m not doing anything to the kids. I, I don’t know where you conjure up these things. You know, I’m sorry that our signals got crossed…
PEW: No signals got crossed…
LM …stop acting like I promised you any such thing, cause I didn’t.
PEW: No signals got crossed.
LM Please don’t act like I promised you any such thing, cause I didn’t. Number one. And number two, please don’t intimate that I’m doing anything to the kids. I said it before and I’ll say it again, just like two weeks ago. Your coming down here is… is of your own free will.
PEW: No.
LM If you want to come down here, I’m not keeping the kids from you, I’m not telling you you can’t see the kids, I’m just telling you that circumstances are not gonna permit me to bring them all the way back today, so…
PEW: Well, you wouldn’t even meet me in [halfway point]. That’s wrong. It’s wrong.
LM Why is that wrong?
PEW: And you know what? Tomorrow, I am having the contempt thing trialed. I’m not, not going to spend 14 years like this, no.
LM I don’t intend to spend 14 years like this either, I just don’t know what “like this” means.
PEW: Mmmhmm. Well, what would make you think after all, I’ve never driven down there except for the one time that you refused to meet me…

PEW logic:  Since she has never driven down “there” before, she should never have to drive down “there.”  I wonder how she would react if I were to use such a childish approach?

LM You mean, the one time that I made you stand by your commitment to come down like you had promised all week.
PEW: Right. Then why would I… why would I come down there?
LM You’re the one saying that you really miss the kids.
PEW: Hmm?
LM You’re the one saying that you really miss the kids.
PEW: I do really miss them, LM, but…
LM Stop making it out like I’m keeping them from you, because I’m not.
PEW: You are.
LM No, I’m not.
PEW: You are. I can’t drive my car down there. First of all, my lawyer said I can’t. I shouldn’t.

Which is it?  Can’t?  or Shouldn’t?  Let this be lesson 1,478,522 of how lawyers can be such scumbags… that is, assuming her lawyer actually told her that.  Her last one told her to move back into the marital home and so she broke in, so it’s entirely believable.  Maybe this new attorney was the same as the old.

LM Shouldn’t and can’t are two different things.
PEW: Yeah, I shouldn’t. And, advised strongly against it, so. (Long pause) (Inaudible) I mean, I can’t, I’m not gonna feel bad about what… whatever consequences you have tomorrow.
LM You don’t feel bad about anything.
PEW: Yeah, I do.
LM No, you don’t.
PEW: I felt more bad, obviously I feel the worst about the kids, but whatever you’ll sustain as a result of what you did today, I can’t feel sorry for you.
LM What exactly did I do today?
PEW: LM, you and I both know what you did today.
LM What did I do today? I’ve asked you repeatedly to send me the evidence that you have that I told you…
PEW: I did. Did you see the email I sent you?
LM No.
PEW: Oh, it says in there three separate times that your vacation was over.
LM Right.
PEW: Right. And you’ve returned them. Since you moved in March, you have done all the returning. So how all of a sudden…

(more…)